Comments for Make it Education that Promotes Intellectual Curiosity http://makeitepic.wordpress.com "It is the supreme art of the teacher to awaken joy in creative expression and knowledge." - Albert Einstein Wed, 03 Dec 2008 07:11:16 +0000 http://wordpress.com/ hourly 1 Comment on Interview with an Unschooler by Frank http://makeitepic.wordpress.com/2008/12/01/interview-with-an-unschooler/#comment-24 Frank Wed, 03 Dec 2008 07:11:16 +0000 http://makeitepic.wordpress.com/?p=42#comment-24 Hi, I came here from Idzie's blog. We're unschoolers and I find your question 3, and partially 4, to be the core of your (former?) and lizlongcore's ignorance about unschooling. Unlike schooled kids who are herded like cattle and forced to memorize meaningless, often inaccurate, crap, and who are taught to NEVER question authority, unschooled kids are given room and time to think. It's a critical difference. Curriculum? Is that like the Christian Bible, handed down to us from God on high, or is it a construct of pedestrian, flesh-and-blood people? People with their own agenda and prejudices. Some of whom IMHO can't tie their shoes without a diagram. Well, I'm getting a little wound up and I don't mean to dump on you. I got a teaching degree in 1970 but like John Holt, John Taylor Gatto, and a host of others I quickly came to the conclusion that the U. S. education system is broken beyond repair and is useful to no one, except as a babysitting service. Even the Romans knew that forced "education" was nonviable, as evidenced by the aphorism: Nemo nisi per amicitiam cognoscitur. And that was more than two thousand years ago. Oh, and if you can't translate that, it means that you haven't studied Latin. How can you possibly get into college or pass "basic skills tests," whatever the hell those are, if you don't know Greek, Latin, and The Calculus? That's what *my* curriculum contended. Apparently current curricula are different. OMG! How is that possible? Cynicism aside, unschooling is the only honest educational philosophy. All others, especially the U. S. public education system, are coercive. Coercion is always bad. Always. Even when it's useful. There's another great old maxim, this one's in English: Beware of what works. And public school doesn't even work in a minimalist sense. How pathetic is that? Hi,

I came here from Idzie’s blog. We’re unschoolers and I find your question 3, and partially 4, to be the core of your (former?) and lizlongcore’s ignorance about unschooling.

Unlike schooled kids who are herded like cattle and forced to memorize meaningless, often inaccurate, crap, and who are taught to NEVER question authority, unschooled kids are given room and time to think. It’s a critical difference.

Curriculum? Is that like the Christian Bible, handed down to us from God on high, or is it a construct of pedestrian, flesh-and-blood people? People with their own agenda and prejudices. Some of whom IMHO can’t tie their shoes without a diagram.

Well, I’m getting a little wound up and I don’t mean to dump on you. I got a teaching degree in 1970 but like John Holt, John Taylor Gatto, and a host of others I quickly came to the conclusion that the U. S. education system is broken beyond repair and is useful to no one, except as a babysitting service.

Even the Romans knew that forced “education” was nonviable, as evidenced by the aphorism: Nemo nisi per amicitiam cognoscitur. And that was more than two thousand years ago.

Oh, and if you can’t translate that, it means that you haven’t studied Latin. How can you possibly get into college or pass “basic skills tests,” whatever the hell those are, if you don’t know Greek, Latin, and The Calculus? That’s what *my* curriculum contended. Apparently current curricula are different. OMG! How is that possible?

Cynicism aside, unschooling is the only honest educational philosophy. All others, especially the U. S. public education system, are coercive. Coercion is always bad. Always. Even when it’s useful. There’s another great old maxim, this one’s in English: Beware of what works.

And public school doesn’t even work in a minimalist sense. How pathetic is that?

]]> Comment on ACT: A Crappy Test by hendricg http://makeitepic.wordpress.com/2008/09/23/act-a-crappy-test/#comment-23 hendricg Wed, 03 Dec 2008 04:11:01 +0000 http://makeitepic.wordpress.com/?p=20#comment-23 In terms of the SAT and the ACT, I fall in quite the opposite boat of many in our class: I spent much of high school when the interesting/relevant stuff would start and ended up roughly in the middle of my class. Meanwhile, my test scores ensured that I would have a decent chance at getting into most schools. In any case, the system is in need of fixing and it is encouraging to hear some reasonable options being thrown out, rather than the usual Greek Chorus of frustrated teachers and angered students shouting "away, away" to standardized testing. The tests will be here until something better comes along, so those that want them out had better be working to create that something better. Interesting points! In terms of the SAT and the ACT, I fall in quite the opposite boat of many in our class: I spent much of high school when the interesting/relevant stuff would start and ended up roughly in the middle of my class. Meanwhile, my test scores ensured that I would have a decent chance at getting into most schools.
In any case, the system is in need of fixing and it is encouraging to hear some reasonable options being thrown out, rather than the usual Greek Chorus of frustrated teachers and angered students shouting “away, away” to standardized testing. The tests will be here until something better comes along, so those that want them out had better be working to create that something better.
Interesting points!

]]> Comment on Interview with an Unschooler by Kris http://makeitepic.wordpress.com/2008/12/01/interview-with-an-unschooler/#comment-20 Kris Tue, 02 Dec 2008 07:22:48 +0000 http://makeitepic.wordpress.com/?p=42#comment-20 No, unschooling does not mean that you lose access to college. I should know -- I'm fifteen and doing college courses right now. Guess what? I pretty much stopped doing math after basic mathematics, subtraction, addition, and division. (They tried to cram geometry down my throat about the time I left public school. I remember having an awful teacher who wanted anything but to give me one on one assistance or to explain what the hell was going on. ) I've been doing unschooling, although a variant of it -- freeschooling. It's basically an on campus version of unschooling with an actual school, but similar applications -- no structure. It has the benefit of community and paid staff/actual campus (although there are only about fifty students.) Idzie's story isn't rare -- more of the norm, actually. You were right about one thing -- you don't get much out of unschooling if you're not motivated. Unsurprisingly, you find that unschoolers are all pretty motivated and pretty involved. Unschooling might not be mainstream, but it's pretty big, so saying that people who do unschooling aren't normal kids doesn't quite apply -- and I could tell you that the kids who I go to school with are perfectly normal, and do most of the same things as other kids their age at public school. My experience with college math? you need 'basic' math that you'll never need to touch once you've got your bachelors. You hop through hoops, you do it, get it past you, and then you're ready to do a math-free education from then on out. I've also found that you don't need math past what you've outlined -- day to day things. Anything you do need, you end up picking up quickly. Math isn't unneeded or useless, but it's not going to kill you to be unable to tell someone what a + b = 27x means. Been doing classes part time at college for five or so quarters now. Idzia (sp?) could definately be in college now if she wants. No, unschooling does not mean that you lose access to college. I should know — I’m fifteen and doing college courses right now. Guess what? I pretty much stopped doing math after basic mathematics, subtraction, addition, and division. (They tried to cram geometry down my throat about the time I left public school. I remember having an awful teacher who wanted anything but to give me one on one assistance or to explain what the hell was going on. )

I’ve been doing unschooling, although a variant of it — freeschooling. It’s basically an on campus version of unschooling with an actual school, but similar applications — no structure. It has the benefit of community and paid staff/actual campus (although there are only about fifty students.)

Idzie’s story isn’t rare — more of the norm, actually. You were right about one thing — you don’t get much out of unschooling if you’re not motivated. Unsurprisingly, you find that unschoolers are all pretty motivated and pretty involved.

Unschooling might not be mainstream, but it’s pretty big, so saying that people who do unschooling aren’t normal kids doesn’t quite apply — and I could tell you that the kids who I go to school with are perfectly normal, and do most of the same things as other kids their age at public school.

My experience with college math? you need ‘basic’ math that you’ll never need to touch once you’ve got your bachelors. You hop through hoops, you do it, get it past you, and then you’re ready to do a math-free education from then on out.

I’ve also found that you don’t need math past what you’ve outlined — day to day things. Anything you do need, you end up picking up quickly. Math isn’t unneeded or useless, but it’s not going to kill you to be unable to tell someone what a + b = 27x means.

Been doing classes part time at college for five or so quarters now. Idzia (sp?) could definately be in college now if she wants.

]]> Comment on Interview with an Unschooler by signe http://makeitepic.wordpress.com/2008/12/01/interview-with-an-unschooler/#comment-19 signe Tue, 02 Dec 2008 06:15:00 +0000 http://makeitepic.wordpress.com/?p=42#comment-19 knowing Idzie, and being an unschooler I found this very interesting. I'm always amazed that there are people who've never met/spoken to an unschooler! I very much hope you can inspire your students to learn everything they can! it works for many of us :) knowing Idzie, and being an unschooler I found this very interesting.
I’m always amazed that there are people who’ve never met/spoken to an unschooler!

I very much hope you can inspire your students to learn everything they can! it works for many of us :)

]]> Comment on Interview with an Unschooler by lizlongcore http://makeitepic.wordpress.com/2008/12/01/interview-with-an-unschooler/#comment-17 lizlongcore Tue, 02 Dec 2008 03:09:47 +0000 http://makeitepic.wordpress.com/?p=42#comment-17 I found your posts on unschooling to be very interesting. While I have always been interested in, and supportive of, the homeschooling movement, unschooling seems to be a horse of a different color. I can't say that unschooling sounds all that great to me. I guess I prefer things to be a little more structured. I think unschooling is something that would have to adopted by a family that values education, because without it, I could see unschooling having some very poor results. Here is what I am wondering: What if an unschooler wants to go to college? From what I gather, unschoolers only study the topics that they want to study. That doesn't always cut it when it comes to getting into college. For instance, had I been an unschooler, I would have stopped studying math after basic addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division. I daresay that this would not bode well for my college entrance exams or my completion of basic skills courses. I don't really know how it would work. While the person that you interviewed seems to be a smart and involved young woman, I can't help but think that this is probably more of a result of her home environment than the result of unschooling. To each his own, I suppose. If unschooling works for some people, then that's great. You were very lucky to get to interview an unschooler. It made for an interesting post. I found your posts on unschooling to be very interesting. While I have always been interested in, and supportive of, the homeschooling movement, unschooling seems to be a horse of a different color. I can’t say that unschooling sounds all that great to me. I guess I prefer things to be a little more structured. I think unschooling is something that would have to adopted by a family that values education, because without it, I could see unschooling having some very poor results. Here is what I am wondering: What if an unschooler wants to go to college? From what I gather, unschoolers only study the topics that they want to study. That doesn’t always cut it when it comes to getting into college. For instance, had I been an unschooler, I would have stopped studying math after basic addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division. I daresay that this would not bode well for my college entrance exams or my completion of basic skills courses. I don’t really know how it would work. While the person that you interviewed seems to be a smart and involved young woman, I can’t help but think that this is probably more of a result of her home environment than the result of unschooling. To each his own, I suppose. If unschooling works for some people, then that’s great. You were very lucky to get to interview an unschooler. It made for an interesting post.

]]> Comment on Schooling the Unschoolers by Idzie http://makeitepic.wordpress.com/2008/10/21/blaahhh/#comment-13 Idzie Fri, 31 Oct 2008 18:06:12 +0000 http://makeitepic.wordpress.com/?p=35#comment-13 Hmm... Yes, I would be willing to answer a few questions. I like spreading the word about unschooling, and I'd love if more people saw it as a viable option! However, I don't really want to give out my email address, so if you could post the questions in the form of a comment on my blog, which I'd then delete, that would be great! Hmm…
Yes, I would be willing to answer a few questions. I like spreading the word about unschooling, and I’d love if more people saw it as a viable option! However, I don’t really want to give out my email address, so if you could post the questions in the form of a comment on my blog, which I’d then delete, that would be great!

]]> Comment on Schooling the Unschoolers by Idzie http://makeitepic.wordpress.com/2008/10/21/blaahhh/#comment-12 Idzie Tue, 28 Oct 2008 04:07:55 +0000 http://makeitepic.wordpress.com/?p=35#comment-12 As an unschooling teen, and one who has been to the Not Back To School Camp so knows lots of other unschooling teens, I can say that unschooling does not stunt people in any way. Unschoolers as a whole seem much more well read than those who attend traditional schools, and even more important in my opinion, they seem so much more comfortable simply being themselves, instead of shaping themselves into something society thinks they should be. I'd say that no unschooler thinks of learning as a "hobby". Instead, unschoolers make no differentiation between learning and life! The idea is that one cannot live without learning, or learn without living. I'm honestly so very happy that my parents trusted me with my own education and life, and I have yet to regret the course my life has taken. Idzie As an unschooling teen, and one who has been to the Not Back To School Camp so knows lots of other unschooling teens, I can say that unschooling does not stunt people in any way. Unschoolers as a whole seem much more well read than those who attend traditional schools, and even more important in my opinion, they seem so much more comfortable simply being themselves, instead of shaping themselves into something society thinks they should be. I’d say that no unschooler thinks of learning as a “hobby”. Instead, unschoolers make no differentiation between learning and life! The idea is that one cannot live without learning, or learn without living. I’m honestly so very happy that my parents trusted me with my own education and life, and I have yet to regret the course my life has taken.

Idzie

]]> Comment on Standarized Testing in Kindergarten? by ehaveman05 http://makeitepic.wordpress.com/2008/09/04/standarized-testing-for-kindergarten/#comment-9 ehaveman05 Wed, 24 Sep 2008 02:19:03 +0000 http://makeitepic.wordpress.com/?p=9#comment-9 I have to agree with sierra and the vast majority of your comments: Why do kindergardeners need standardized testing? The thought is simly obsurd to me. We hated it in High School, we hated it in middle school. Shot, I remember hating it all the way back in the 5th grade. Most of the years we were taking those tests we were completely unaware of WHY we needed to take them or what benefitial results blossomed from them. Now, as future educators, we still see them as limited devices that often prove nothing. Kindergarden is about socializing, learnign the alphabet and counting to 100. The highlight of a five year olds day is stringing wooden blocks together and racing their best friend in a playful game of "choo choo trains"! Seriously, what are they testing? A 5-year-old doesn't even understand the term, "Bubble test". I think this is pushing the ticket and agree that kindergarden is a seque into grade school to help small children adjust to the idea of school, education and socializing with their peers. Sure, there is a "curriculum," but it consists of broad topics and general thought patterns. For all of these reasons, I choose 'D': None of the above. I have to agree with sierra and the vast majority of your comments: Why do kindergardeners need standardized testing? The thought is simly obsurd to me. We hated it in High School, we hated it in middle school. Shot, I remember hating it all the way back in the 5th grade. Most of the years we were taking those tests we were completely unaware of WHY we needed to take them or what benefitial results blossomed from them. Now, as future educators, we still see them as limited devices that often prove nothing. Kindergarden is about socializing, learnign the alphabet and counting to 100. The highlight of a five year olds day is stringing wooden blocks together and racing their best friend in a playful game of “choo choo trains”! Seriously, what are they testing? A 5-year-old doesn’t even understand the term, “Bubble test”.
I think this is pushing the ticket and agree that kindergarden is a seque into grade school to help small children adjust to the idea of school, education and socializing with their peers. Sure, there is a “curriculum,” but it consists of broad topics and general thought patterns. For all of these reasons, I choose ‘D’: None of the above.

]]> Comment on ACT: A Crappy Test by Shaynon http://makeitepic.wordpress.com/2008/09/23/act-a-crappy-test/#comment-8 Shaynon Tue, 23 Sep 2008 14:55:03 +0000 http://makeitepic.wordpress.com/?p=20#comment-8 I can definitely relate to your experience with the ACT in some aspects. I was a smidgen away from obtaining great financial support, and it certainly wasn't because of my English/reading and writing scores. In fact, I didn't do such a bad job on the math part either--I was actually stepping into college with a major and English minor. Thank you science section. I agree that the ACT leads to much frustration over such situations, and your post made me think about some possible solutions in regards to scholarships. What if universities granted attention to specific subject scores of the ACT and granted major and minor related scholarships according to those scores? Say, for example, that I was planning to be a math major and had a great math score...a university could offer me a scholarship amount if I were to pursue math-related classes without allowing my less-than-perfect science score to hinder such benefits. Or does this happen already, and I am just unaware? This and other ideas were just flowing through my mind as I read your post...I haven't entirely considered the thought that I just revealed, so I just may find reasons why my spur of the moment idea won't fly...but I think it is important to note that not many students are excellent in every single subject on the ACT...and even students who DO get close to perfect scores probably won't excel in all of those subjects throughout their college years, but will instead specialize in a particular area or two. Why not just grant them money for those areas? I can definitely relate to your experience with the ACT in some aspects. I was a smidgen away from obtaining great financial support, and it certainly wasn’t because of my English/reading and writing scores. In fact, I didn’t do such a bad job on the math part either–I was actually stepping into college with a major and English minor. Thank you science section. I agree that the ACT leads to much frustration over such situations, and your post made me think about some possible solutions in regards to scholarships. What if universities granted attention to specific subject scores of the ACT and granted major and minor related scholarships according to those scores? Say, for example, that I was planning to be a math major and had a great math score…a university could offer me a scholarship amount if I were to pursue math-related classes without allowing my less-than-perfect science score to hinder such benefits. Or does this happen already, and I am just unaware? This and other ideas were just flowing through my mind as I read your post…I haven’t entirely considered the thought that I just revealed, so I just may find reasons why my spur of the moment idea won’t fly…but I think it is important to note that not many students are excellent in every single subject on the ACT…and even students who DO get close to perfect scores probably won’t excel in all of those subjects throughout their college years, but will instead specialize in a particular area or two. Why not just grant them money for those areas?

]]> Comment on ACT: A Crappy Test by Kierra Jones http://makeitepic.wordpress.com/2008/09/23/act-a-crappy-test/#comment-7 Kierra Jones Tue, 23 Sep 2008 10:48:36 +0000 http://makeitepic.wordpress.com/?p=20#comment-7 I DEFINITELY agree with not having the ACT Test serve as the final say-so for who is able to attend college and who is not. I found myself with the same gripes about the ACT: it does not accurately measure a student's intelligence, nor does it have the ability to forecast how a student will perform in college. My sister is a senior in high school this year, and the first time she took the ACT she received a 16. Now, in academic language, that is a horrible score, and theoretically, she would not be able to get into any college with that score. The irritating thing about it is the fact that my sister is a very intelligent young lady who is always WILLING to learn if she is given the opportunity to do so. That 16 can be the difference between her having a promising career or having to struggle in her adult life. As a secondary English major, I'm always scouting out techniques that I can use in my classroom to prepare my students for this test--especially since I plan to teach in an inner-city school whose students usually score lower in these type of test...but that's an entirely different topic :) I really hope that colleges reconsider the weighted significance of the ACT, at least for people like my sister. I DEFINITELY agree with not having the ACT Test serve as the final say-so for who is able to attend college and who is not. I found myself with the same gripes about the ACT: it does not accurately measure a student’s intelligence, nor does it have the ability to forecast how a student will perform in college. My sister is a senior in high school this year, and the first time she took the ACT she received a 16. Now, in academic language, that is a horrible score, and theoretically, she would not be able to get into any college with that score. The irritating thing about it is the fact that my sister is a very intelligent young lady who is always WILLING to learn if she is given the opportunity to do so. That 16 can be the difference between her having a promising career or having to struggle in her adult life. As a secondary English major, I’m always scouting out techniques that I can use in my classroom to prepare my students for this test–especially since I plan to teach in an inner-city school whose students usually score lower in these type of test…but that’s an entirely different topic :) I really hope that colleges reconsider the weighted significance of the ACT, at least for people like my sister.

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